I simply followed a link from Twitter. After reading the post, I decided to reply. Posting on Twitter is a bad way, if the goal is to attract Christians only.

2, Upon what basis do you claim to know what other people (do & do not; can & cannot) know?

I only know what I think. And, I know others cannot read my mind, or anyone else’s mind, for that matter. When claims suggest access to the private thoughts of others, huge red flags go up to me. I refer you to Romans 1 for a classic example.

3. Who is the “we” that you assert also know these things you claim to know?

I am merely being confident in asserting that others will agree–no human can read any others human’s mind. But, you are right, if “we” don’t agree on this, then “we” have to take a huge step backwards in this discussion.

4. What establishes you as an expert on mental health?

Does one have to be an expert to read about mental health, and to have a good general working knowledge of the same? I am not an expert, but rather simply a reasonably well informed general practitioner of family medicine.

5. What makes you suppose that because something “seems to be true” that it is?

I have no evidence (as in zero) that would suggest any other human can read, or know the contents, of another person’s thoughts with much certainty. As well, I have none that any human is anything other than pathetic at predicting (prophesying, etc.) the future–even the near future. So I consider this to be true, as the evidence that it is, is overwhelming. But, I am open to evidence to the contrary.

6. Have you never been wrong (since whenever you decided you are an ex-Christian)?

You tell me. Do you think I should believe someone who claims to know the thoughts, desires, and motives of other people, as the Apostle Paul does in Romans 1? If so, why?

7. What establishes your standard for right and wrong?

I am simply saying that the kind of faith you are referring to leaves you vulnerable to the pitfalls that evidence suggests comes with the disordered reasoning that it takes to have said faith. . . . I don’t think it is right or wrong.

8. Did you publish the book you said you wrote?

Billy Wheaton with Joy Fuller, Hooks and Ladders, iUniverse, 2009 (obviously both pseudonyms)

You can Google it and get it multiple ways. Or, if you sent me your email in a few days, I could send along a free PDF version (same as published version).

Billy Wheaton
I am BillyWheaton on Twitter

I will pose to you these questions (some for the 2nd & 3rd times)– if you elect to answer any or all of them honestly, and if you wish me to, I will engage you in further discussion. Otherwise, you are welcome to the last word:

1. What was your motive in posting your non-christian views to be read by Christians?

2, Upon what basis do you claim to know what other people (do & do not; can & cannot) know?

3. Who is the “we” that you assert also know these things you claim to know?

4. What establishes you as an expert on mental health?

5. What makes you suppose that because something “seems to be true” that it is?

6. Have you never been wrong (since whenever you decided you are an ex-Christian)?

7. What establishes your standard for right and wrong?
—a. Are you (a) god?
—b. If not, who or what is your god?

8. Did you publish the book you said you wrote?
— a. Under what names (title / author / publisher)?
— b. Where or how can it be obtained?

I cannot wish you godspeed, as He is angry with the wicked every day, but if you will repent of your sins and seek Him, you may yet find God merciful,

al

For example, when one says that as a Christian one becomes “spiritually discerned,” or whatever, in comparison to non-believers, the obvious question become, How do you know this? Since we know you cannot truly ever know (because you [as I] cannot read others minds), then you must have another way of knowing. So when you are referring to me, I know when your assertion are correct or incorrect. So when as above, it is stated with certainty, that I did not have whatever spiritual, metaphysical, attitudinal, or whatever ingredients it takes to make a “genuine” Christian in the past. The conclusion is that Al somehow magically knows that IN COMPARISON TO HIM, I lacked some ingredient that he has now, which makes him a “genuine” Christian.

And yes, this claim (a common one among the Christians I know) is flat out crazy.

To claim you could somehow know this from reading the Bible, and claim your particular interpretation of the Bible is equivalent to the “word of God,” is not consistent with the overwhelming evidence we ALL have at our disposal. You cannot read my mind. I cannot read yours. So regardless of what a Bible passage might say, Ravi Zacharias doesn’t know what another human is “morally reluctant to accept.” Paul, the author of Romans, does not know the will and motives of non-beleivers as he claims in the patently absurd first chapter of Romans, for example. And no matter how good you might feel about being special after reading a Bible verse–we know you simply have no way of knowing whether you are more, or less, blinded; more, or less, discerned, etc. than anyone else simply because you are a Christian.

If you take these special powers to be true based on faith, I consider this to be potentially scary and dangerous, as you could use the same kind of warped reasoning to justify almost anything (as many already have).

Billy Wheaton

Your efforts to cast doubt on Al’s mental health and eligibility to be taken seriously…are casting doubts on your own.

I appreciate your thoughts, and hope you read more than the titles of the blog and post. In all gentleness, I ask you as a guest to grant Al and the others as much – if not more – respect and courtesy as you wish for yourself.

If one were to outline what you claim generally, one might come up with this:

-Special powers, roles, and secrets that only you and a select few have.

-false beliefs that are clearly outside the realm of knowing in our shared physical world. For example, you claim to know, based on my non-believer status, enough about my past motives, character, integrity, or whatever, to have determined I was never essentially indistinguishable from someone like you now–as a “genuine” Christian.

-A need to appeal to one’s special powers in attempts to hold one’s false beliefs together (e.g., quoting a Bible verse, interpreting it, and assuming one’s special gift of discernment makes the believer’s interpretation non negotiable).

Thus you special powers, not evident in our shared world, and false beliefs that are not correctable by reason and evidence. As these are the hallmarks of the reason processes of people with mental health thinking disorders–as defined in the psychiatric community–do you think anyone should take you seriously?

If not, that is sad to me. And something like apologetics will become increasingly a tool that leads you and some others in your group to withdrawl from the rest of society as the title of this post suggests (such withdrawal is yet another hallmark of mental illness).

If you do want others to take you seriously, then you will have to try (not necessarily all in one day), shed the Superman costume, and specal powers from your unnatural world, and have to learn to cope with others, who have the same limitations, fears, uncertainties, and challenges that you have.

Billy Wheaton

I am quite aware that my post offers a “good example of the things [you] mentioned in the previous post,” as that was my intention, in part. But let me be perfectly clear that there is no “as if” about what I’m saying: true believers in Christ, who have been born again from above by the will and action of God upon them, most assuredly DO “have special knowledge [and] discernment that others don’t have.” The third chapter of John and many other Scriptures make this clear to the believer, and leave unbelievers to muddle in the unclarity of their own self-manufactured confusion. I cite again [for the believers' benefit], 1Cor.2:14:
“The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” [I commend to all readers the entire passage from 1Cor.2:1-14 as an exposition to those who are able to understand, of why and how they are able to understand.]
We all entered this world as “natural persons,” but some have been given by God a second birth which has initiated the formation of Christ Jesus within us, adding a spiritual dimension which the natural does not and cannot possess.

As for reasoning: all reasoning is circular, as it must return eventually to some fundamental presupposition. Ours is this: God is, and rewards those who seek Him diligently> We know this because His Word declares it> His Word is true and trustworthy because God cannot lie> We know this because His Word says so, and on it circles…

You appear to not realize that, in your blatant statements about the “flawed reasoning” of Christians, our worldview, distortion of reality, and what “we all know” [about what we can & can't know], you are making the same claims against Christians that you accuse us of making towards you. But, you see, we DO know your thoughts and motives, not because we are smart or magical or mindreaders, but because God’s Word openly states them. But you still haven’t told us: upon what certainties do you base your claims to a superior knowledge that purports to discredit ours?

As previously stated, I do not claim to know whether or not you have ever been saved– only that if you were you still are and it will become evident eventually. The Bible does say, however (not merely my opinion), that your feelings of earnestness, honesty, and wholeheartedness have nothing to do with the reality of it [one may be sincere and still be sincerely wrong].
I also do not know whether you are a deliberately deceitful rebel against and enemy of God, or simply a deceived and rebellious enemy of God because of ignorance. So, you see, unlike your claim, I do not pretend to know everything, nor to have secret knowledge– everything we believe is clearly stated in the Bible, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. But the dead in trespasses and sins see and hear nothing of the kingdom of God.

Regardless, I wrote a book about evangelical (inerrantist) Christians, so I suppose discussing it from time to time seems reasonable. Really I need to do more, and get my website up again.

Anyway, you wrote, “But there are no ex-true-believers-unto-eternal-life. If Christ has once known you, nothing can remove you from Him. If He has never known you (as in Mt.7:23) then you are not a once-was, but a never-were. The faith of a genuine Christian is based solely upon the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Word of God.”

This is a good example of the things I mentioned in the previous post. And it gives an example of why people might be attracted to Christianity. Specifically, you make a blanket claim about what Chriatian faith, as if you have special knowledge or discernment that others don’t have. But we know this is false. I can read and study the Bible just as you have. And it is unreasonable to claim it is inerrant. As well, Christian faith may or may not be based on the things you outlined–the particulars are contingent on the persons who hold such faith.

Next, you use circular reason with your rendering of “once saved, always saved.” Regardless, we all know that you don’t know my thoughts, motives, or the nature of my commitment, in the past, to the type of Christian faith you seem to have now. If I tell you I was earnestly, honestly, and wholeheartedly commited to Christ in the past, then that should settle the matter. If this does not fit your worldview, and in order to make things fit with your flawed reasoning, you claim to know my thoughts/mindset in the past, then too bad for your worldview. You cannot bend reality just to make it fit your distorted view of reality. You are a “natural man,” no matter how hard you pretend to have special powers or gifts that make you different than me. As a result, I know you have no idea, whatsoever, what my thoughts and commitments were in the past.

Billy Wheaton

But seriously, one must wonder why you would post what you have on this particular blog, “Desire Spiritual Growth”…

Inasmuch as you do not appear to be seeking to learn of Jesus Christ, have you posted from a desire to deliver misguided Christians from our “delusion”, “childishness”, and “stupidity” as you put it?

Or is it possible that whatever you now believe has brought you so little satisfaction that you simply wish to dislodge the faithful from their security because your misery would love some company?

Most of what you allege about “Christians” does not apply to biblically defined believers in Jesus Christ and, while I will confess with Daniel that I have known professing christians who have held such views, and have even done so myself in past ignorance, “blind” belief, a know-it-all attitude & behavior, and “hatred” of those who are uncertain are decidedly uncharacteristic of genuine believers in Christ, who attribute our salvation to the unmerited grace of a loving and merciful God who freely gave His only Son to be the propitiational sacrifice for the sins of many, to die in our place that we might live.

Now, if you’d like to accuse believers of writing inordinately lengthy run-on sentences, I have just validated your claim in the statement above. But as far as the nature of faith in Christ, you have demonstrated by your comments a gross misunderstanding and lack of knowledge. I say this not to shame you, but in hope you may consider the possibility that I am correct, and stick around to seek the truth as it is in Jesus.

As for being an ex-Christian, perhaps you are (in the sense of the world’s definition of a christian). But there are no ex-true-believers-unto-eternal-life. If Christ has once known you, nothing can remove you from Him. If He has never known you (as in Mt.7:23) then you are not a once-was, but a never-were.

The faith of a genuine Christian is based solely upon the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Word of God. Upon what are your beliefs based?

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html?mainframe=/calvinism/warfield_reformed_theology.html